Wild Love Theory with Naughty Gym

Wild Love Theory with Naughty Gym | Episode 240

In this episode of The Swing Nation Podcast, the top-rated podcast about non-monogamy and swinging, Dan and Lacy sit down with April and Scott from Naughty Gym to talk about their upcoming book release, Wild Love Theory.

April and Scott share the story behind how the Wild Love Theory was created, what it really means, and how couples can begin applying it in their own relationships. They dive into the idea that many people slowly give up parts of their true selves in the name of keeping the peace—and how that can quietly erode connection over time.

Through their framework, they explore how couples can pursue more freedom, authenticity, and fulfillment while still maintaining strong ethics, communication, and safeguards. This conversation challenges traditional relationship norms and offers a fresh perspective on how to build a partnership that feels both secure and expansive.

If you’ve ever felt like you’ve lost pieces of yourself in a relationship—or wondered what it would look like to have more freedom without sacrificing trust—this episode is one you won’t want to miss.

Connect with Naughty Gym on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/naughty_gym/
Naughty Gym's Website: https://www.naughtygym.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast as long as all it does and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Welcome to the Swing Nation Podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the extroverts. Learn and grow together. Join the nation. Hey there, pineapple people, and welcome to the Swing Nation podcast. We are your host, Northern Guy.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

And Southern Girl.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

And we are back with an exciting episode. We actually have people in the studio this time.

SPEAKER_05 0:57

You're the only people that ever came. Oh, wait, Diana came once. And this is our second time.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

And yeah, you're only the third people to come here, and you've come here twice.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Good for you, buddy. We got Scott in April from Naughty Gym here. And uh they're here to talk about their new book uh called Wild Love Theory. That's getting ready to come out in, would you say July?

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Uh it's gonna be a soft release in July, we think, and uh the full release. It the book's done, but it's gonna come out officially on Amazon probably in September.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

So we're gonna talk about your book. We're gonna get in a little in-depth on that, but then we also, you guys are here to tease a little. You're involved in the purchase of possibly a lifestyle resort in Florida. Yeah, this is still in the works, so we can't say too much, but we're we're we're gonna tease it a little bit, right? We're gonna talk about it a little bit because there might be some opportunities for people that are looking to get involved with something like that where they can get involved.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

It's happening, uh, and we have to be careful not to make the people at the SEC mad because we say stuff we're not supposed to.

SPEAKER_04 1:57

Okay. So we're gonna dance around that, but but put out the information we need to put out about that. So stay tuned to the end because that's when we're gonna talk about that. But uh, I think we want to start with this book. So tell us wild love theory. What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Uh so we it it it really the book sort of was born through our relationship. Um we we realize that it like a lot of us that have uh you know explored non-monogamy, you start out with this huge list of rules, right? And usually that set of rules shrinks over time. And that's a pattern you see across most relationships. And it seemed to us to be more indicative of a real underlying structural issue that had never been addressed. And we felt like maybe, maybe it should continue that way. Maybe throughout the course of your relationship, those rules should continue to drop because quite frankly, most of those rules, and maybe all of them arguably are a response to some insecurity or fear that we have. Well, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

I think every time we thought we make a rule, it's because we've something has triggered something within us, and then we're like, oh, we need to do something to protect ourselves from that.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

And that's a social conditioning, not necessarily f fear, but it could just be the way you were raised or religious upbringing.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Yeah, that fear could be from our our upbringing, but um, and that's the typical pattern.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

All right, so I should probably before we get too deep into that, why don't you just introduce, in case for some reason, our listeners don't know who you are or they haven't come across you before, I got a little bit ahead, I think, diving straight into the book. But tell us a little bit about Naughty Gym and now that and a little bit about you guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Okay, so Naughty Gym is an online fitness and lifestyle platform where we program workouts, nutrition, but it's also um a platform for anybody in the sex positive space. So LGBTQ, EM, kink, poly, whatever. We do weekly lives, um, we have different experts in there in every facet, religion, um, somatic sexologist, therapist. So it's just an online community where you can kind of be yourself, take care of yourself. Um, but then we also host lifestyle events all over the world. Um, next week we actually have one in the Smoky Mountains for our book, Wild Love Theory Retreat. We go to Barcelona, El Salvador, um, Jamaica, one at Hedonism. So uh yeah, our main focus is connecting people. Yeah. So we're not a super sex forward, we are connection focused. So sex can happen and does happen as a result of those connections. Um, but yeah, that's basically and it's naughtygym.com. Um, all of our information events, everything's on our website.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

So you guys you started as you guys owned a CrossFit gym, right? And then two. And then COVID happened and you started this Naughty Gym platform, and then that kind of took off, and then you got outed because of the platform.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Which we talked about on your first website.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

So go back and listen to that podcast episode. Uh, and then from that, you guys started doing, you know, once you got outed and all that stuff happened, you started throwing lifestyle events and really have become, you know, pretty bigger players in the lifestyle industry, and you know, have been throwing parties and events, and you guys are I think you were different, you know, we talk about all the time how like you gotta connect with like your people or whatever. Right. You guys are definitely like that fitness forward uh connection in the morning and then party and fuck at night.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

Where the we let's sleep in to noon and then have lunch and then go party. But I love that it doesn't matter what you're into, there's a space for everyone. And you can also do a little bit of both. Sometimes we just want to party and have fun and not think about that, but other times we want to go and do yoga and relax and really connect. So I love that no matter what you're into or what your vibe is, you can find your groups.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

And that is the beautiful, beautiful thing about the lifestyle community is you can go from community to community. Like you guys offer stuff that we send, people were like, You'll love this event, go to it. And sometimes people will come to our events and they're like, that really wasn't a fit, but there is so much to offer, and so well that's what we always tell people the key to the lifestyle is really finding your community.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Like, you know, I I I can only imagine how many people go to some random like hotel takeover or meet and greet, and they're like, those were that was not the party for me, and they never come back or go to anything again. I think it really is key that people understand there's a million different types of communities out there, and there's niche ones that you know, if you're somebody that really likes skiing and and doing all that, and then having sex with you know your friends at night, like there's a community for that, and I think that's an important message. So then, okay, so now fast forward, you kind of get your backstory. So then when did this conversation about wild love theory, like, how did this even come up?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So Scott had actually been twirling it around in his head for much longer than I knew. Um, and it was on a podcast, was it two years ago, around Christmas time?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Well, a year and a half.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

You guys have your own podcast, The Naughty Jim Show, right? And it's on YouTube and YouTube, and any podcast, Apple Podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Um, and so live on a podcast, unbeknownst to me, he presented Wild Love Theory, but the way he presented it, it's a lot more refined now. But the what I heard was um, I'm taking all rules off of you in the lifestyle. You have no rules in not just the lifestyle, but anywhere. Come and go freely, date who you want, fuck who you want, essentially do what you want. And because I've always been the brakes and he's always been the gas, I took that as he is saying that because he wants me to say that to him. Yeah, and I'm not saying that to him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:33

He wants to go and date everybody and be wild and have.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Well, I think that's what most swingers, I think when people bring up swinging to their partner, that's usually what people are afraid of. It's like, oh, you're just telling me I can fuck other people because you want to fuck other people. What's wrong with me? What don't you like about me? That's a natural response.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Honestly, I don't blame anybody for failing that way. It is a natural response, but there is something behind it. And so that's when I I actually hired a new therapist because I'm like, he has never breached my trust. And so I'm like, why am I not trusting him when I'm when he's literally telling me I don't want reciprocity, I want to give this freedom to you because I want to see you grow into your own self.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

Like this is outside of the lifestyle too. Like you were kind of explaining it to us before we started. Like, if he wants to go play pickleball three times a week, he can or you can't. It is lifestyle, but it is much bigger than that.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

If I want to take a weekend away by myself or a girl's weekend, I don't I can do whatever I want.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

So this theory isn't specific to non-monogamy. This is more of like a relationship theory than it really is.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Yeah, and we we spent a lot of time in the book talking about non-monogamous examples of the theory, because that's that's where you're gonna have the hardest time. Like, for instance, if you're a monogamous couple, non uh wildlife theory works regardless of whether you're monogamous, non-monogamous, it doesn't matter the structure, it's it's structurally neutral. Uh, but those are the types of questions you're gonna face, especially if you're monogamous and you hear, uh, oh, you're telling me I should teach.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Because as soon as you say there are no rules, the first rule you're gonna think about is well, can I fuck other people, right? Right. Yeah, right. Or that well, that rule's gonna at least come up in conversation, right? It should, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

And if and if the theory holds when it's being tested under that extreme of a condition, it'll hold under the pickleball problem. It'll hold under any kind of situation because that's the toughest thing, at least for most of us, to deal with is the idea of our partner in some capacity being with other people. Most of us in the lifestyle have gotten over maybe part of that hump.

SPEAKER_05 9:28

You know, at least a sexual part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Yeah, we're we're good with certain things, but maybe not everything. And the the seed of this was that I felt like there needed to be some sort of foundation that could help guide this process. Right now, we all seem to have that similar experience, like we talked about, where our rules tend to get less and less as we go. But there's no guiding process for that, it's just sort of random. And like you said, if we have a dust up, we tend to, instead of fixing the insecurity, we create a rule. And when we create that rule, we take, you put a rule on Lacey, and all of a sudden Lacey now has to stop doing something that she probably would like to be able to do, but in order to manage your sense of safety and relational security and insecurities, she agrees to that rule. Well, now you've put that imposition on her, and now in some way, she's not who she really truly is. She's wearing a bit of a mask to soothe your insecurity.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Well, and that's what I was doing. That's what scared me more than anything. And I think the truth behind me pushing back against that was now I'm going to have to look at my issues and fix them because it's not a him problem. Him giving me that freedom and me not wanting it is a me thing. And me trying to put more rules on him to keep me safe is also a me thing. So I had to really unpack and sit with some really heavy emotions and work through things. Um and that discomfort is where you get more expansive, right? Like there were times where I had to pause and I'd be like, I'm feeling too many big feels. Like, I can't do this. Like, let's take a break before we talk about it. And sometimes that would be a month, two months, sometimes it would be two days. But I want to allow him to have that freedom, and I wanted to allow myself to have that same freedom. And so being discomfort doesn't mean something's bad, and fear doesn't mean something's bad. And so if you grow up, maybe your anxious attachment, avoiding, you know, the polysecure talks about all the different attachment styles. That's a you problem that you have to heal so that you can be more expansive with your partner and show up more for yourself and your partner. Um, so it was just two weeks ago, or April 1st, that I took all rules off of him.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

For 30 days.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

After two years of working through a wild love fire. You're in the middle of a 30-day hall pass right now. And then at the end of the 30 days, we'll come back to it. It's kind of like a relationship agreement, and we'll discuss like, am I dysregulated still? And if I'm having trouble regulating, he's so gracious and patient and kind, and because he loves me, he'll be like, good, let's pause for however long you need until you can build the capacity where you regulate easier. And it is, it's a process like working a muscle. Like it's gonna be sore for a while. Take a break, take a rest day, work it again. It's gonna be sore for a while. And that's what we've found this process has been like.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

And it has not been easy. I mean, she's talked about how she got angry when I first presented it. And part of the problem is I thought I was gonna do this on the podcast, and it'd be like a great conversation.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Oh, we're gonna have this, and it's gonna be like an epiphany. And then here she's like getting mad at you, and you're probably like, Oh, do I need to cut this camera off?

SPEAKER_05 12:49

Or we've gotten in fights on the podcast and had to fume.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

I thought I was coming in as the hero, you know, like you're free and you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well, and he presented it at the time as I'm giving you this freedom. And I was like, bitch, you don't own me. Yeah, yeah. Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 13:05

If I wanted freedom, I'd just fucking leave. I'm like, you're not giving me anything.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Well, and that's one of the distinctions. We've presented this uh at different workshops, at different events and stuff. One of the confusing things, and we go to great length to you know to to explain this in the book, wildlife theory is not no rules, it is just an orientation towards turning, towards giving your partner back the sovereignty that we tend to take from them. If she or you have things that the other will not allow them to do, and it's something that you would otherwise like to be able to do, that is part of your sovereignty and autonomy that has been taken from you. I'm not saying there is a time and a place for that, and we have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

And it's not malicious, it's not it.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

It's not mean-spirited, and we we call it scaffolding in the book, and and you know, we explain it, but if if that becomes a permanent thing, it is a permanent diminishment of who you are as a person. Now, you may never be able to let that rule or imposition go. You may have so much trauma in your background, you may work for two or three years to Lacey may say, I'm I've worked for three years and stressed myself out to try to give you this freedom to do X, whatever X is. And and she's just spent thousands in therapy and stress. Well, maybe that's time to just call it on that one and say, look, yes, that's something I'd love to be able to do, but it is too much work for you, too much hardship. I don't want it that badly. But at least she tried. And or at least you tried. Um, and so that's that's part of what, or that's the biggest thrust of the book is to try to get back the sovereignty and agency of every human being to be able to live the life on the on the outside that matches what they want on the inside. And it can be done, but it has not been an easy process for us. And we feel like we're now starting to really get over the hump of that.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

But there's also no finish line because every relationship is different, just like the lifestyle, everybody approaches it differently. And so the book is not saying the ultimate goal is no rules or the ultimate goal is X, Y, Z. It's saying, how can I create more freedom and autonomy in my relationship? And maybe that's just one or two small steps to expand it. And even those one or two small steps make such a huge difference in your partner and yourself being your true self, that self-congruence.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

And we see that in the lifestyle all the time. Like you've probably started with a lot of rules, and then you took one off and realized that wasn't that big a deal.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

We actually did it the opposite because me and Lacey met in the lifestyle and we were both swingers separately. So she was like a unicorn and I was a bull. We started with no rules, and then we quickly went, oh shit, this is not gonna work because you know so kind of like what you did.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

We actually did 30 days of monogamous to kind of like and it ended up being a little longer just because of the holidays, but just kind of like build a foundation there because we're certain people like some people they've been dating for or married for 20 years and then decide to swing, they have that foundation built there because not, so we kind of had to like force it.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

We started with like we know we like each other, but we're both going around and doing whatever the hell we want, but we don't really have the trust and foundation to trust each other to be doing that. But since we've been doing that, and that's how we became together and met, we're gonna keep doing that, but it's not working because I don't even know you enough to trust you, you know. So it was a kind of a well, that's we came at it from like the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Well, that's such a great segue because in the book we talk about those exact same though the foundations that every relationship needs, whether you're monogamous or not, you gotta have trust, you gotta have honesty, you gotta be able to communicate well. Wild love theory doesn't address those at all, it assumes them. And if you don't have a solid baseline of that kind of stuff, wild love theory is a little too early right now, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

So we almost had to like stop and be like, we need to make sure we're good at least. Like, is this even something we want to do? Are we even compatible before we can go like sharing each other?

SPEAKER_05 16:58

It's like, should we is this can we do this? Can can this work in the long run? Are we just kind of like wasting each other's time?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Just making sure your values align. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

But I give you know a lot of the success, I think, of mine and Lacey's relationship is because we came at it from that opposite. We almost like came out of it from let's figure out all the ways this is gonna fail. Right? Like that's I mean, literally, that's how when I when I when me and Lacey were like, first of all, I was trying to convince her that we are not gonna work. Like listen, I I live live eight hours away. I got kids in this state, you got kids in that state, like I like fucking a lot of women, like I'm gonna break your heart. Like, and I was just trying to convince her all the ways our relationship wouldn't work, and not because I didn't want to be with her, but it's because I had been in a long distance or long-term relationship and had gone through divorce, and like I just didn't want to experience that trauma again. So I was like, I'm not doing this. I'm telling you, this is gonna work because the XYZ. Yeah, and then we kind of worked through every one of those issues and found a resolution for it. Um, so it was really like a backwards way of doing it.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

If anything comes up or anything, like we know, like we've already we did that years ago. Like it's not it's not a big deal for us, you know. We so it's definitely that you said something that stuck out to me. You said something about like wearing it, like the mask has come off. I feel like obviously I'm not doing the wild love theory, but I guess there's layers of mask, and I guess I never thought of that because I remember when we were out it and everybody found out about it, and I I felt like oh my god, I can finally like be me. For all these years, I've had this mask on and I pretended to be somebody other people wanted. So I never thought that there's another layer until you said that. But you're you're right, you're in if you do this, you're you're uncovering more layers than that.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, for sure. I had spent the last couple years asking myself, what do I want? Right? I I was married for 17 years, took care of kids, ran a business, got married again, and I go into a caregiver mode because I'm a people pleaser. And so I'm like, why I was feeling burnt out? He had given me this freedom and I couldn't use it. And Scott had asked me before, like, what is it that you actually want? And I'm like, oh my God, I have no idea. I've never allowed myself to ask that. I've never been asked that by somebody else. Like, apart from my kids, my business, my husband, their ecosystems, what is it that I actually fucking want?

SPEAKER_05 19:24

I've been sitting here thinking about that as we've been talking, and the only thing I can think of is like to go to the beach pop and nobody talk to me, just leave me alone. But like honestly, what do we want to do?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Same. Yeah. But had I ever allowed myself to dream past that, like actually plan it, like what would that look like? Like what where would I eat? Like all of that kind of stuff. And so there was a day in for 10 years. So um, I had been telling Scott, like, my plate is full. Last fall I got to a point where I was so burnt out in caretaking and business stuff that I told Scott, um, I need you to go away for a week.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

I need you to be away from me. And by the way, this was in the height of us working through all the concepts of the book, like the most stressful time of our relationship.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

And I was like, I need to just not caregive. I need to take care of myself and not think about anybody else. Um, and what that ended up being in the book now is called imposed burdens. So it's all of those things that you pick up because somebody else won't or can't. Um, kids' stuff, business stuff, taxes, all of the stuff that Scott would sweetly say, I don't like doing it. So I'm like, well, I'll do it. And I never could put words to it because he's the kindest man I know. He's tender, he has he doesn't raise his voice, he's never said an unkind word to me. But I was still feeling like he was putting something on me that I couldn't vocalize. And for years I'm like, yeah, he'd be like, Aren't you happy? Like, do I treat you good? I'm like, yeah, but there's I'm some there's something weighing me down, and I can't explain it. Finally, in in um the fall, we were able to explain it to him in a way that he could understand.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Well, yeah, because the the big, you know, the the the book was uh essentially about trying to get people to understand that instead of or while you put a rule in place on somebody, also be working on the insecurity that caused that rule. And so so that you can eventually remove it.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

So they No, I think yeah, that's just like in the lifestyle, right? So if you have a no-kissing rule or something like that, or whatever the case may be, it's like, well, why, what is it about that that makes me uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Like and which she agreed with that, except she just never could lean into this newfound freedom. And we were sitting on rowers at the gym one day when it hit her, what it was. She's like, I'm just exhausted. I I know I could go out Friday night and go, you know, getting an eight guy orgy and they're just railing me in the bathroom at the club. But I'd rather sit here in my pajamas because I just got done doing the dishes, I just got done doing the Taxes, I don't care, I don't have the energy to do it. And we realized that that was just as much an imposition on her as any rule I had, and maybe worse than any rule I had ever had on her. So that became the two-part imposition part of wild love theory that you can have the normal impositions that we're all aware of. You can't do this, you can't do that, don't do this. But you can also be sort of structurally limited from enjoying any freedom because you have to go do this. You have to get the the admin work done, you have to get your laundry done, you have to take care of the kids. And I think I'm being a good guy because I'm going, hey baby, I'll do anything you want. Just tell me what you want cleaned. Do you want vacuum the house? Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

But let me I helped you with the dishes, which implies it. It was her job to be honest. I'm like, but we're partners and this together, so why am I thanking you for doing my dishes? Like it just didn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

And she had been saying this stuff for 10 years, and it took, and this is not this is horrible on my part, but it took something as important to me as this book for me to finally go, holy fuck, she's free to do whatever she wants. And I'm been such a shit bag in this aspect of our relationship that she can't even go out and enjoy that freedom because she's so exhausted, and uh it's become a huge part of the book. Now we had to rewrite whole swaths of the book to get this part in there, but it's it may be the most important part now.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Well, and he hired an emotional burden coach who usually works with women to help the talk to their husband through picking up some of those burdens. And what she did was I was on their first call together, she just made a list of every task that you would do in a day, in a month, in a year, and broke it down. Who does it? And you could see the imbalance. Like my name was like everything was just like 60, 40. It was more like 80, 20, 15, and so she said, Well, let's balance this. What can you take off? And then she said, April, when you give him a task, write an SOP for it. So he knows exactly how to do it. And you because as soon as he comes to me and says, How do I do this? I've moved back into that management role. Yeah, and I'm not his mom, I'm not his manager, I don't want a micro. And she said, Don't remind him. And if he doesn't do it, don't do it. Oh, that's hard. It's fucking hard. It is. Those are the hard things.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

But it has I would be curious if we made a list like that, what it would look like. I think I feel like we're probably more balanced than what you're describing. I think we are too. I think it would probably still be heavily in my category. I would guess, but there probably are things that you do that I don't think about.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

I know there is.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

I think we would probably have to put your mom on our list too, because there's quite a few things that now that she lives with us, that she's taken off of our point.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

I think what you're bringing up is like every marriage. I mean, like there's a person in every marriage, and then there's like somebody that thinks they do everything, but then they don't realize what the other person does. That's kind of like half of Dana's right.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Well, like having a tangible list, even for imposed rules or imposed burdens, being able to see that and where the imbalance is. And if you have a loving partner, you know, hopefully they'll be like, Well, let me step up.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

I wouldn't even know how to make a list though. Like, and you guys are similar to us because you, you know, you throw, you have a podcast and you do, you know, events and stuff like that. Like, there's so many things on my list that I don't even know.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

They're not daily things, they're just random and like well, most of ours weren't about that part though. Ours was more of the everything but that that she was handling, most of that. And and uh it's just stuff that you kind of don't think about. Like and I sh did tell me this stuff for 10 years she's been telling me. Uh, but um, all of a sudden I realized I'm trying to be, I want to be this great husband. I want to give her the freedom to live her life the way she wants to live it. And I had no idea how impossible that was simply because I asked too much of her in other areas of the of our life. And it that seems like an obvious thing to realize, but it for whatever reason it just never sunk in until we started trying to work through the issues in the state.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Well, it's only been two or three months, but having some of those burdens removed from me has been incredible. Like, honestly, it has helped me get to the place where just April 1st, I took, I was like, for 30 days, let's try taking all rules off of you. Because what was happening, like the last time we went to Hito, he was like, Can I explore like removing a boundary? And I was like, fine, kiss anybody you want to. Well, here's the problem we're working that event. So I have all of these burdens, like, where's what's being set up? Where are our hosts? Is the team and then while he's making out with everybody in the pool? And I'm like, this is no fucking fun for me. Like I was so stressed out that by the end of that trip, I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah, I don't want to do this. Like experimenting removing boundaries while I'm working is not a good idea. Yeah. And so the last three months, having the freedom to dream, to kind of come and go when I want to, which of course I'm not gonna abuse it because he's my person. And we check in all the time, but I have gone on some solo dates for the first time. Um and had fun. And had fun, like allowed myself to do what I wanted to do in that moment without any thoughts of anybody else. And that was really the first time in over 20 years that I had experiences like that. And now I'm like, I want you to also have that freedom, and we'll explore it for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, we'll come back, have you know, our relationship agreement meeting and see where we're at, how regulated I am, if we need to like pause for a second or what comes next.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

When she finally went on that first separate date, you know, this was a huge step for both of us. And I thought, I'm ready. I've been doing this internal work. Like I said, before I presented the theory to her on that first podcast, and she got mad, but I had been working through this in my head for months and months thinking, I'm not gonna present it to her unless I'm confident I don't need that reciprocity.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

I can't say this to her if the ultimatum I can't like offer this to you with the the hook of but you have to give it to me. The conditions.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

And that was tough. So months I've been working through this. So I thought I was ready until that first time she went out on that date. And man, that is just you just never know what you're gonna feel like until you're we've been there, and we've done that too, and it was hard.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

And during COVID, we uh, you know, because obviously there was nothing going on, and Lacey was kept being like, I want you to go fuck some girl. I'm like, Lacey has like, has not going to a tour club for like six months got like your brain crazy because I know you and you do not want me to do that. And so like it turned into like we'd be fucking you know, almost every time we'd go to fuck, she'd start talking about how she wanted me to go fuck some girl. And I'm like, I'm just thinking she's just dirty talk, and then she's like, No, seriously, like we got done fucking, it's like you know, the the endorphins have calmed down, and she's like, No, really, I think you should message one of those girls that you used to fucking go and see if you can hook up with them. And I'm like, and we went and did it. She lost her shit.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

I did. The second he sent the text. I was like, oh god, what did I do? But I didn't want him to know that I felt that way, so I tried to pretend like I was okay, and um I wasn't. That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Well that's part of that's the big that's a big part of the book is to try to there's no right now, there's no guidance or uh structure for how to do that. How do you do that? How do you work through those issues? And that's what the book is trying to solve is here's it, it's not it's not an attempt to make it easy. It's not easy. This work is not non-monogamy is not easy in general, and this is a step above that because it's trying to get you to take, you know, all of the limiters off if you're capable. And that work is difficult, but at least it gives you a structure and a path to understand exactly what's happening, to identify all the issues, and to create a plan for working through it. It's not a solution, it is more of a highlight to where all the issues actually lie, and uh and it's an encouragement. And but like she's going on what three, four dates now. They've gotten progressively easier. The first one that she went on, I probably thought about it for two weeks, every second of every day until that date happened. Well, it's trying to be like you were talking about. I was trying to be the big guy.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Well, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Here's something that we've just talked about recently was he, because he knew how dysregulated I could get, would temper down how excited he was about another woman or an experience or how hot somebody was, because he was afraid it would make me uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

As every husband on earth probably is, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I finally I was like, you're doing a disservice to me because I'm trying to do this work. I need to feel those uncomfortable feelings so I know what to do with them. But if you're if I can sense it and you're not telling me, now I'm creating a narrative in my head that you're lying to me or there's more there than because you're not telling me. And and so I'm like, I need you to be fully transparent. If you're scared, if you're jealous, if you're excited, I want to know all of that because I can only do the real work if I have all of the information.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

And one of the biggest, so there we we take it a step further in the book by not just saying, hey, this is a you know, this is a possible path forward. There's an ethical obligation, we think, to not diminish your partner. Now, that does not mean that, for instance, let's say you're a cheater, you've cheated on her eight times. That doesn't mean she should go, yeah, I you know, I know you've cheated eight times, but no rules. I don't want to hold you back. Right, right. That's not what we're saying here. That goes back to the parts of the book that we don't talk about, those foundational issues that every relationship, regardless, not even romantic, just friendship relationship, you gotta be able to trust people and those sorts of things. If you don't have that, you know, put wild love theory back on the shelf. You've got more important issues to deal with. But we have a thing in the book called the freedom mandate, which means that you should not buy your own emotional stability by editing your partner. In other words, and that's what we do when we put rules on them, right? We say, look, I'm I'm dysregulated, I'm hurt, I'm bothered, whatever. The solution to that is for you to change, not me. For you to become less than who you truly would like to be so that I can feel safe. The better answer, we think, is to temporarily put a rule in place. We call it scaffolding in the book. You know, it's it's representative scaffolding around the building.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

You're helping hold the structure until it hardens. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

You put it in place until the building has the capacity to stand on its own, and then you remove it. That could be two weeks, that could be two years. It it may take a lot of work. But you we feel like you owe that to the person you say you love more than anybody else to say, look, instead of me trying to change who you are as a person, I'm gonna I'm gonna dig into the insecurity and fear that I have and try to fix it. And now you may not be able to, but I think for most of us, we actually can, you know, with therapy or friends or books and stuff, fix a lot of those insecurities. It's not easy, uh, but it's doable. When you get on the other side of it, the world feels like it just kind of opens up to you. You have no limits. You can it's and it's not, we're not trying to paint this picture of just debauchery, like you going, oh, she did she took rules off fixing the fuck everything that moves. That's not it. It just feels expansive, it feels big, like life now isn't restricted in the way that it used to be, and you're doing it as a team, and you both become better for it. And our our marriage, while we've always said we have we think we have this incredibly special relationship, it feels even different now. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, it feels deeper and richer, and we've both been able to explore a part of ourselves that we hadn't allowed ourselves to because even though we've been in a non-monogamous relationship since since we started, um, we were very cautious and very slow. Um, and that's kind of when the guardrail started to come up. But I don't think either one of us, because of our religious background, our previous marriages, had ever truly explored who we were individually and really stepped into our full autonomy. And that's really it's brought us closer. And I mean, we've heard people say, well, that sounds like relationship anarchy. Like, what if your partner is an asshole? And it's like, well, then this isn't for you. Like this goes under the assumption that you have a loving partner, and that doesn't mean it's always gonna be easy, but it does mean that you assume the best in them. So if I did something that hurt his feelings, he's gonna automatically assume I didn't do that on purpose, right? Or that I had loving intentions behind it, unless I'm superman.

SPEAKER_05 34:49

So I have a question though, because I hear what you're saying, and honestly, uh I love figuring out who I am. The idea of figuring out who I am outside of anyone and kids, work, husband, that sounds amazing. I don't really want to go on a date with anybody else, though. You know, if I'm being honest, and so like I to me that's outside of like just kind of dating myself and loving myself and finding out who I am, I mean, do you have to go on dates? No, no.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

So let's let's hold that, let's hold that thought. I want to take a little break. I want to hear from the partners and sponsors of Twin Nation podcast, but I think on the back side, I have some questions too. So I think we've kind of heard what the theory is. We can I think we kind of understand the idea of it. So then maybe give me and Lacey a chance to shoot some holes in it and see how it how it stands up. And then we still got to talk about this uh lifestyle resort. So after the break, we'll get to that. Lacey, one thing I don't leave home without when going to a swinger event is my ED medication.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

That is correct.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Performance anxiety is 100% a real thing. Um, having sex in an orgy room with um a hundred people in there is way different than having sex at home in your bedroom.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

It is.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Um so I like to have what we call a little insurance policy and have some of that ED medication in my pocket. Um, shameless care is who I use for that. And they actually just came out with a new product called the Shameless Duo. Yeah. Which is a combination medicine that has Viagra and Cialis in it, so that one, you can be ready whenever, but also it's got that dose that you can take when you're, you know, as you're getting ready to go to the playroom and you need that to kick in. Yeah. So I love it. I mean, I used it at Hito for the first time, and that that combination.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

You're gonna pretty much switch to that, haven't you?

SPEAKER_04 36:38

That's basically what I use all the time now. Yeah. So if you're looking for ED medication, if you're new to the lifestyle uh and you're going to an event, you might want to get some and have it just handy in case you need it, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 36:49

And the really cool thing about shameless care is they don't set you up on a recurring plan. So you're not gonna get all of this ED medication that you have in your nightstand built up. When it's time that you need more, you'll get an email from them and they'll ask you, hey, are you ready for another round? And you can respond back, yes, please refill it, or no, I'm good right now. Thank you. So it's really cool because you don't end up with all these extra pills and spend a bunch of money that you're not, you know, you don't need to spend.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

Yeah, and my favorite part is you don't actually have to go into an office and talk to your family doctor or a military doctor. Um, you can do it all right online from the privacy of your home. Uh you just go to their website, you fill out some forms, the doctor reviews it, approves you, disapproves you, and you move on from there. So if you would like to get some medication, you can go to theswingnation.info, click on the little recommended apps and products, uh, scroll down to the shameless care icon, click on that, and that's going to take you over there. Uh, there's some discount codes there for you so you can get a discount off your first order. But uh I highly recommend if you're going to some events or parties, go get you some lifestyle insurance. All right, guys, check it out.

SPEAKER_05 38:03

Dan, if someone is just recently joining the lifestyle and they don't really know where to begin, what do you recommend?

SPEAKER_04 38:10

Well, the lifestyle, you know, it's 2025. And people are on the internet. They are and there just so happens to be lifestyle websites that are dedicated to people connecting in the lifestyle. Yes. SDC happens to be one of our favorites. Over three million users. You can find people in your area, you can find clubs, you can find parties. All of it is right on SDC. Um, and you can get a huge discount by signing up with us.

SPEAKER_05 38:37

You can.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

So all you got to do is if you're looking for lifestyle people in your area, if you're looking for the clubs, if you're looking for the parties, go to theswing nation.info, recommended apps and products, scroll down to the STC icon. We'll give you a free trial. Yeah. You can check them out. You can see who's in your area, you can see if it's uh if it's the app for you, uh, all completely risk-free. Yes. So just head on over to theswing nation.info and get signed up for STC today. All right, welcome back, welcome back. Thank you for listening to our sponsors. Lacey loves our sponsors. All right, Lacey. So we've got the theory, right? And so April and Scott are telling us that if you want to be a good human, you gotta give your partner full autonomy to be their best self. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

Which honestly, my brain kind of hurts if I'm being honest. Like, it's like I feel like I'm trying to like wrap my head around it.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

That's everybody's response. Yeah, okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_05 39:32

Yeah, because like I do understand and I I do it is appealing to me, but then there's also like some just I'm confused, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

I just well, let me let me address the question you asked right before the break, which was I don't have any there's no the wildlife theory is not about doing any particular thing. Okay, it you can you can have an incredibly rule-based relationship under wildlife. Like you could be monogamous, you go to church every Sunday, uh, we don't text our exes, uh, whatever. As long as those are things that both of you genuinely won't know, don't not just agree to. Like, not Dan wants you to not do this, so you're agreeing to keep it.

SPEAKER_05 40:11

So it's more of like an internal, but like obviously, if I meet somebody that I'm like really smitten with, I could go to Dan and be like, I guess do you go to that person or you just do it because of course.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Okay, I mean, just like any other loving relationship. Like, so I had a date this past Friday, and Scott and I had had a very stressful week, and I know I have the freedom. I could I could just say, fuck him, I'm going on a date. But I came to him and I'm like, look, I know this has been kind of a tough week for us. Are you feeling okay? Like, are you is this going to spin you out of control? Because I love him, he's my person. And I'm like, I will cancel my date. Um, if if you would like to just stay home and connect some. And he was like, No, I'm good. I want you to go. And he would in that, but if he would have said yeah, I would have canceled my date. But that's a powerful thing. Because he's my person.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

Yeah, to have her come to me with that kind of care and conviction, you know, I was like, oh my God, there is no way I will step on her joy in this moment just because I might be feeling a little less regulated than normal. Right. Okay, so now had she not offered that, I might would have been like, bitch, you didn't even ask me if I was, you know, I might have been mad.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

In a vanilla sense of the world where uh of the agreement, if I want my grandbaby to come over and Scott's like, I'm not doing grandbaby stuff today, I'm like, well, he's gonna spend the day with me today. And normally I would have been like, Scott, you know, is stressed out, but I'm like, I'm going to have the grandbaby. I want to, I this is something I want to do. Yeah, I'll take him to the park, we'll go outside. But I'm not going to not do that because he doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

And to be clear, this is not uh there's if you can't easily weaponize this theory. Yeah. You can easily use it to get your way to manipulate your own. Yeah. But and it and if at any point you trying to quote claim your autonomy and freedom is either directly or intentionally uh an effort to hurt your partner, or you're it's obviously hurting them, then you're misusing the theory. It's not about that. It it's about building a stronger relationship that has the capacity to not need these rules, not about imposing your freedom because you think that's what you should be able to do.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

I don't know if that makes sense, but well, I guess my my counter-argument would be well, isn't that every relationship is a negotiation? Like we all have the freedom, technically, to do whatever we want, but we can't do that because we're thinking of the needs, wants, and desires of our partner. And so we've kind of all entered this negotiated state where we do certain things and don't do certain things because we're taking into account our partner's wants and needs. Like, isn't that every relationship on some aspect? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Isn't that like kind of love? Like, for instance, like I'm driving home and I'm see a TJ Maxx. I kind of want to stop and see what they got. But I know that like the family's at home and everybody's hungry, and it's probably nicer of me to just so you like weigh the pros and cons and you're considerate of your partner, and so you just go on home. I did want to go to TJ Maxx, but I'm okay with not going. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Like those are more uh that's not really what we're talking about. Okay. These are more big picture directional aspects of your life. Not, hey, uh, I don't want to vacuum today. Uh, or I it it's hard to even bring uh like you're talking about. I want to stop at TJ Maxx, but I don't really have time because I need to get back to that. That is you being you. Okay. It's not that every whim that crosses your mind should be something that you engage in. You do have to balance sometimes the realities of life. There are things that we have to do. We have kids, we got responsibilities, we got work, we've got all these things, and you need to get that shit done first. What we're talking about is when there's generally a part of your person, your personality that you would like to live freely with, and Dan is saying no. Because it it it is too difficult.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

But what are some things that you guys have what would be an example of those types of things that you guys have identified as you've worked through this?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

For us personally, or just or you can give us examples and discussions. Well, so I did want to do separate dating. Yeah. Um, because at first I thought it was because um Scott, we it's hard to find a four-way connection. And we don't we don't love orgies. Um, and it was difficult. We always felt like one of us was taking one for the team. Right. But I also know that Scott loves to connect really deep with somebody before that. I don't necessarily need as deep of a connection with somebody. And so I was like, well, let's explore this. But then again, that was three years ago. I didn't have the time to explore it.

SPEAKER_04 44:45

And so this is something So you both wanted to do separate dating, or that was primarily.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

No, we both did.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Well, yeah, yeah, it wasn't as easy as you know her mentioning it and us both like, oh yeah, this is all years to get to that. Because earlier in our relationship, you know, when we were talking about rules and boundaries and how we wanted to go about this non-monogamy thing, she at one point she had said something about if I ever come to you and say I want to do separate dating, you should know. The red flag. Well, literally that's a good one. I'm trying to find a new boyfriend.

SPEAKER_05 45:12

No, I was just thinking that in my head, to be honest with you. It's like I I he's my best friend. I want to go and have dinners with him. If I'm with like some random man to me, that just that is my preference, yeah, us together.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

But I do get this like Lacey has a similar experience to you where sometimes it can be difficult for her to find guys in coupled situations that she really enjoys. So, you know, and and we've kind of done the where she kind of hot wifes, but usually when they're involved, or where it's like a group house where there's a bunch of us that doesn't really, you know. Right. And so that she's kind of used that to kind of you know scratch that edge. Yeah. But the idea of her maybe going out and doing a separate date just to get to know a guy so that she can fuck a guy that she wants to fuck, I don't think I would be completely against it, but that is a little, I think, outside of my comfort zone. Right.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

Well that brings it to the stuff. It's outside of mine. I'm curious that when you say I just don't have any interest in separate, and by the way, wild theory has nothing to do with separate. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

We're just getting something that we started. And there's a couple other things.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Yeah, it's just one of the harder tests. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And it's a great way of testing the theory. But when you say you you didn't, you don't want or have any interest in that, how much of that is I just have never had any interest in it, and how much is I don't want to open that can of worms because it may invite Dan to want that?

SPEAKER_05 46:28

And I don't know, it it's not even has to do with Dan, it's more me. I like I feel like he is my person. And like I don't mind hanging out with people and getting to know people and something like that, but like to go on like a very intimate thing where they pick me up and I dress nice and go and sit, just see like deep down, it feels uh like I'm no no it and that's I can't get the words out, but you does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Like it doesn't align with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

One of the concepts we have in the book is called living agreements. These are things that you do agree to do because they reflect who you actually are. For you, that may be you may love non-monogamy, but you only really love the when we're together partners.

SPEAKER_05 47:15

Yeah, it's kind of like a hobby that we do together. It's something fun, it brings us together.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

It's and that's who you are. Yeah. So there's no issue there.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

But another, and this is kind of maybe a side, but something that this has allowed us to do when I was talking about like what do you actually want? There was I had so much fear about figuring out who I really am and what it is I actually want. That what if he allows me this freedom to grow and then I grow apart, we grow apart, or I outgrow him, or he doesn't like it anymore because one of the things was I'm a peaceful people pleaser and I have high functioning codependency, which means I can take care of everybody. When I stop except yourself, right? And so for the last year I've been working on that. What happens if I stop taking care of everybody and they don't like who I am then? What if I start like I became seriously like an angry feminist? Like I started like, and I'm and I'm like, I want my freedom so much, and now I want other women to have their own freedom. And like, what if I'm perceived as like this bitch who and I'm like that's okay. I need to be able to being having the freedom to grow into who I want to be, and him being my biggest cheerleader, even when he doesn't always agree or is like, okay, maybe tone it down a little bit, has been incredible.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

And I feel like there's so many women and men who get to this point in life, like I said, I'm 47 where that they don't like my youngest is getting ready to graduate. I've been a mother for 25 years with kids at home. This is the first time I'm not gonna have kids at home. And it's like, who am I and what I'm gonna do? What am I gonna do with this time? Yeah, what do I want to pursue? What passions do I have that I've never tapped into? Do I want to learn to dance again? Do I want to learn to paint? Like all of those things. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

And and while that is that that is a very common uh thing you'll see. The the the the husband and wife just sort of drift apart when the kids leave.

SPEAKER_04 49:17

Because who are that's the whole, I mean, that's the midlife crisis thing, right? Like is especially if you get married. I mean, I got married like 19 and have kids, and so it's like that whole first chapter of your life is like you're what you're saying is you're you're worried about everybody else and making sure everybody else is fed and taking care of their needs and wants. And so like one day when you wake up and now you don't have to do that anymore. I think everybody kind of comes to this. Well, what do I do now? And what do I want to do and where am I in my life?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Well, and in the business that we're in, too, we're essentially we're taking care of people. Still, all four of us.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

When we go to an event, we're people pleasing the entire time. Yeah. And and it that's part of the beauty of this framework is that it if it brings to surface all of these questions about who am I, who do I want, and makes you have those conversations so that when the kids leave or when life turns on you, you you do know, well, this, but I've always known what I want. We've talked about this, is this is who we are as people, and we can pursue it instead of just going through life on the inherited scripts that we've grown up with that hey, I'm married, this is my one person, I should never even look at lustfully at another person. You know, we we we just we grow up in that culture and we just sort of adopt it without questioning a lot of times. This gives you the framework to go, all right, I want I want to find out who I am, and I want to pursue it in a way that is respectful and loving to my partner, but gives me some direction to keep this relationship that's so special for us stable and flourishing.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

Yeah. No, I I I get the idea of it, I think. I think I think I need to read the book because I think there's details that I'm missing.

SPEAKER_05 50:52

Yeah, I'm curious, like you, I know we said you said dating other people is not part of the book. So then what can just so I make sure I understand, if it's not going to TJ Maxx underway, and it's not fucking it's not dating other people, so what what are some other things that maybe is there anything right now that in the lifestyle, let's say, that you would love to be able to play around with occasionally that Dan just doesn't like to see you do?

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Or vice versa. Dan's got something that he would kind of and first of all, usually these conversations aren't easy to even have.

SPEAKER_05 51:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Uh, but is there something Dan?

SPEAKER_05 51:25

No, I'd have to think about that. I I that impops so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Like, is there like some people have a no-kissing rule or no um, like if you're uh you know, don't have a wet swap or whatever that is. You can't come inside of somebody, or you can't do anal with flu fluid body. You can't come in, you you know, you can't fuck them in the ass.

SPEAKER_05 51:45

So or just yeah, so I don't know. I'd have to do that. Because it's not enough. Because we don't really have yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Well it's not enough that both of you agree to it. That's fine. We we would call a rule, like if you wanted to do a thing, she didn't want you to do it, and you just agree not to do it, that's a rule that we call scaffolding. It's in place, but whoever the one that's insecure or fearful of that now owes the work and that we think of at least trying to get through that insecurity because it's not just for you that she's getting or he's getting over that insecurity, it's for you too.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

So, like, one of our boundaries is we do messaging through group messaging, and we think that's a good thing. That's a common one because my imagination is my worst enemy, and he could just say, Hey, how are you to a girl? And I think they're gonna build a house and move away. And um, so like we have that as a protection. I mean, I don't know if how he feels, but for me personally, I feel like it's a protection because I know that even though I genuinely know they're not moving away and built getting a dog and have a white peek advance, but it helps protect my peace so I don't even have to worry about that.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

So I had the same rule until April 1st. But I knew there's so much behind that fear and insecurity. Logically, I know he's not leaving. Yeah, logically, I know if he wanted to, there's no amount of rules that I could put on him, right? That's true. And so we have a uh chapter in the book called The Bad Prophet and the Unprophet. And the Bad Prophet is basically built around me. Because of my history, I'm hyper-vigilant, I learned to watch men, I know, I thought I knew every woman, I know their motives, the way they act, I can tell what they're doing. I know what they want from him, I know how they're gonna respond. And and so I was doing so much of that narrative in my head of if this, if he messages privately, then that means she's hotter than me, he's good, it's gonna make me less special, she's going to build a house, they're gonna have they're gonna write out of the sun.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

Like all of the dog, all of these and it wasn't serving me, yeah, and it's not real.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

I was creating that narrative. Now that doesn't make it easy, it's still uncomfortable. And this is just new for us where he's just been able to private message, yeah. And our phones are open, like I can check it anytime I want. But when I I want to be able to say I trust him and mean it.

SPEAKER_05 54:13

Yeah, because the truth is if he wants to text somebody, he's gonna do it. He's gonna find some way a message, you know, that you're not gonna know. I guess though, like if I have I'm gonna use me as an example, if I have the ability to just text anybody whenever I want, to me, that's just like opening up, which I mean, somebody that's non-monogamous, but like bitch you fuck people, you know, like like what are you talking about? You know, like you're worried about a message, but like when you say it out loud, it's you're right.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Yeah, you but you're working through this as I think we still communicate, like he'll let me know I'm texting so-and-so if I just wanted to let you know, like this is Yeah, and I guess the fear for me from that would be well, me and Lacey get in a fight, and then she goes and texts another guy, and like dance being a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 54:59

But that's weaponizing it, right? Right, you don't want to talk to me, well I know somebody.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

But the truth is we could do that with it.

SPEAKER_04 55:06

And I don't I don't even necessarily be, I think that's human nature. Yeah, like when you get in an argument with somebody you love, you want to go vent to somebody. And so, like, now because we have this rule in place, well, a healthy person to go vent to would be your friend that's a girl that you haven't fucked, or you know, like well, I fucked her.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Well, yeah, but specifically with that, we've I don't know that we've ever, we may have talked about this. I know for sure, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, that I would not want her if she was pissed at me going venting to a boyfriend. Yeah, but she wouldn't want me doing the the same.

SPEAKER_05 55:42

I feel like it just scratches the surface.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

But here's the thing that's not against what we're talking about, my love, because it's a genuine desire that both of us have. It's not a diminishment of me as a person.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Okay, because it's something I want, it's something she but it's also one of the values that wild love assumes that you have mutual respect for each other, trust. I would I don't talk negatively to anybody about him. Even though I'm talking shit about Dan. They would do themselves. Like they might.

SPEAKER_05 56:13

I was talking shit about him like two days ago, but it's about he's like obsessed with AI, and that's all he does now is play on this AI computer. I'm like, oh my god, Dan was up to 4 a.m. talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

But that's not talking shit, right?

SPEAKER_05 56:25

That's kind of talking shit.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Like that asshole. But also, any friends that we would talk to would be like, April, get a hold of yourself. Like, you know. Um, so but it does, it assumes mutual respect, kindness, love.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Yeah, this isn't a it's not a free-for-all, it's not of every imaginable whim. You just pursue it with recklessness. That's not what this talk, and there's a lot of safeguards built into the theory to help explain that in the book.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

But yeah, it almost seems to me like this is a normal relationship, except for it's forcing you every step of the way that when you make a rule or a boundary, or you know, you you negotiate on something, you dig the next step deeper into yeah. Why did we put that in place? And is there a way that we can remove that boundary by bettering ourselves as humans?

SPEAKER_03 57:09

Well, that's exactly right. And because the actual theory itself is seven words. The theory is maximal relational happiness requires maximal relational freedom. What that says is if you want to be as happy as you can, this is, and and we cite a lot of research to support this, but if you want to be the happiest version of yourself, you have to be able to, it's called congruence in psychology. What's what you truly desire and want on the inside is allowed to be expressed without consequence on the outside. That is brutally difficult. And you're probably never gonna perfect it. But as long as you orient towards that, you're working on it, then then you're gonna start to see that likeness come back into your life where all this shit doesn't feel as heavy anymore. The texting thing both felt heavy to both of us. Yeah. When she started texting guys, oh, it was now though, it it's not just that it doesn't bother me. I actually I actually experienced some conversion from it now because I can see how much joy it brings to her. But that's not to say getting to that point was very easy, it is difficult.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

I can't imagine him sending a good morning text to somebody.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

And you're not losing your shit.

SPEAKER_05 58:13

Yeah, I would have a hard time.

SPEAKER_04 58:14

I mean, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

I would have a hard time. No, I was in that same place, honest to God, for years. And that was one thing that that was one thing specifically that I was like, I am going to work on this.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

But the funny thing is, we're in like a dozen group chats and we send good mornings and good nights to all of our friends all the time, and it's not an issue because you can see it. Yeah, so it's not really the good morning that's the problem, it's the the the intimacy. Yeah, it's the intimacy.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

That's the point. This will bring to surface your fears and insecurities, and instead of you being able to um take that fear and insecurity and dump the responsibility of managing it off on your partner instead of on yourself.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

So you're essentially you're just dealing with the underlying issues instead of putting a magnet on it.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Right. Yeah, in order to, we believe, have a ultimately a happier life. Not that you're not happy now, but that it can reach a level that feels even grander.

SPEAKER_04 59:10

I get that. You know, me likes to even talk, yeah. She even comes to me sometimes. Like, when I met you, you lived off in the woods, and used to, you were driving a tractor and running chainstalls and hiking, and she's like, now you don't do any of that stuff. And I was like, yeah, because you hate all of that stuff. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, because you got me living in the you would never, and she's like, yeah, but you used to be so masculine.

SPEAKER_05 59:30

It's like I want to watch you from the window in the air conditioner.

SPEAKER_04 59:34

So I think you're right. We we do have this effect where we change each other. And you know, sure, if you were like, oh, there are no rules and you can do whatever I want, would I spend more time hiking and doing outdoor stuff? Maybe. Why do I not do that? Like you said, well, because I'm too busy editing podcasts and you know planning events, stuff that you've decided you want to do.

SPEAKER_05 59:52

Right for the record. But that's but that's it.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

You're not right now. Do you feel like, oh my god, I've lost a part of myself because I'm not in a wood born? No. But so it's not an issue.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

But it can be simple things like in my previous marriage, he hated sushi. I would only pick restaurants that I knew he liked. And for 17 years, so when I divorced, I was like, I don't even know what I like to eat. Yeah, like what and so it it can be small things like that that can at over time diminish a part of who you are.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:21

You said you're you live a fulfilled life even without when we get in fights. Sometimes you say that. You say, Well, I I'm an outdoors guy, I don't do anything outdoors. You you have said that, so you need to rethink your answer on that or deep dig deep.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

Well, no, I think well, I think I think well, I'm sure, and I'm sure every relationship has those kind of things where it's like, well, I've changed some of the things I do day to day because of our life is just different now. Yeah. Um, and and like you're saying, not to say that my life now is not fulfilled, but you do you have made changes, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

So I think Yeah, it's not it's not that you look, you get in a relationship, your life changes. Yeah, there's no way to avoid that. Right. What we're talking about in the book is not that changes can't or shouldn't happen, it's that the unnecessary diminishment of your partner shouldn't happen. Some things are necessary. You gotta go pick the kids up at school, right? You can't just be like, well, that's not who I am as a person. Well, you're bad dad, then that's who you are as a person. But it does there are lots of things that we do to diminish our per partner on purpose in order to save ourselves some hurt. Now, if you like robbing banks, she should diminish you in that way. That's not that's not an ethical or moral thing to assume it. But if it's simply I'd like to go camping once a month, you know, and if that if that triggers her, well then that's probably sounds like something she should work on. It doesn't sound like it would trigger.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

But that also is a good place to start a conversation about like this, these are some things that I would really like to do. Maybe it isn't this year, but is there a way we could move towards giving me a little more freedom to explore and do that kind of thing? And maybe you're like, well, I want to spend a week alone at the beach. Let's do it. How can we make this happen? You know?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:03

I think I'd be kind of like where you're at. Like, well, do I not camp because Lacey doesn't want to camp? Or do I not camp because I don't want to camp anymore? I'm not even really sure which one is the answer to.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:11

And I guess you gotta go and then figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

But that's such an important point because we the problem we're trying to highlight in the book is so prevalent in relationships and culture that that's what happens. You just don't know anymore. You don't know who you are.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:26

Well, and I'm sure when you're angry and you're mad, you're just throwing stuff at the wall to see what'll stick. And so, of course, you're gonna blame the other person for something because that's the easiest way of doing it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

I'm also 41 year old years old and my back hurts, and I don't know if I really want to sleep on the mattress anymore. You know what I mean? Like different. There's part of that that's like, yeah, maybe I think I want to do that, but maybe I don't, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

So I guess my next question is because I know you said you're doing a retreat coming up. So how does is that people that are already living this? Is people that is it people that I'm assuming this is already hooked up and you probably don't have any. But I'm I'm guessing you'll probably do more of these. We will, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

So we actually partnered with Expansive Connection, which is a therapy group who is backing the book as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

And they specialize in non-monogamous and non-traditional relationship structures, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

And so they will be joining us at the retreat. And so the um we have nine couples that will be there. They've all read the book already.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

Well, they are three uh two chapters away from we've been releasing a chapter a day to them in Telegram since the book's not actually published yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

It's April 15th through the 19th in the Smoky Mountains. Um, but basically it's a couple's retreat, but it's gonna be intense, they're gonna be working through these principles. We aren't therapists, so we're not telling them how to implement it, we're presenting it. And the book is written, each chapter is Scott laying out the theory and then my response in lived experience. And so by the end of that week, the therapist will help them with a take-home plan. Like, here are some steps, but they're also there to help them regulate. Um, we'll add in some fun things to kind of like you know, somatic exercises to shake out and regulate. But um, yeah, this is gonna be a very interesting retreat and kind of test of like what things can expand in because there are people there from all walks at different stages of their relationship.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

And so yeah, and April and I are not capable of telling somebody you have this fear. Well, here's how you get over it. That's not our lane. We the book is built to kind of shine a light on where those things tend to pop up in relationships, but you know, the work is if it feels like something, hey, this there seems to be some merit to this idea, but it's really triggering me or making me have some that's when you need help from a from somebody other than us two idiots. You know, you need a therapist. I'm an idiot.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

So we say that all the time on the podcast, like we're just telling you what happened, like we've been through, and like and we can lead you to the experts that can help you.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, that all sounds great. And so if people want to learn more about the book and and uh maybe some of your events, where do they go for that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

They can go to naughtygym.com and there's a tab for wild love theory, and they can get some more details there, all over our events, everything's there. And if they would like to send us an email, naughtygymonline at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

Well, and we're gonna be building, it's not completely finished yet, but we're building a little community for the book. Because one of the things that we've realized when we presented this at workshops and keynote speeches and stuff, we get inundated with questions. Yeah, and uh, and and that's great, we love that. Um so this is gonna be a place where you can go and interact with other people who are dealing with the issues in the book, ask questions, maybe ask questions of us, that sort of thing. Uh we but we want to have that community ready as well. So yeah, please we're gonna have a uh a what is it? Naughty gym.com a landing thing where you put your email and stuff in. Be super technical. I'm pretty good at this. It'll be on the website, naughty gym.com and you can find out updates and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:56

Okay. All right, so now let's talk a little bit about what you teased at the beginning. There's a lifestyle resort in Florida that you're hoping to acquire?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Yeah, so we have to be careful. We can't say the resort. Uh it is in Florida. It's in a, you know, a city that's kind of a beach city, but uh it it's we you know, we've been there before and we've been to a lot of resort. We think it's probably the nicest lifestyle resort in America, but you know, that's a you know that that's depends on who you are, yeah. Right, depends on who you ask, but it's a very nice place. Uh and and the group we're involved with is gonna come in. We're April and I are actually gonna move there on the property uh to run it and um you know try to change some of the things that maybe aren't optimal for you know the community right now and and make it a better place. There's gonna be lots of renovations, there's lots of uh uh condominiums that are gonna be built in addition to what's already there. Uh we're gonna turn it into there's this um inst there's this organization in America called Soho House. It's these local, it's sort of like the modern day country club without a golf course. It's a you know, pools and spas and work co-working spaces and and bars and restaurants where you can go and just hang out. Uh, we're gonna turn this into that in addition to the event and party space.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:13

So is that like a monthly membership or annual members?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:16

That part would be, but that would be for local people that live there because one of the things that you'll see that's a constant problem with places, uh lifestyle resorts in the America, different from Desire and Hito, is that 90% of their revenue probably comes in on Friday and Saturday.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:30

You know, it's every every swingers club, any lifestyle.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

Yeah, they're essentially dead Monday through Thursday. Yeah. So we're gonna have these, you know, in it, we're still gonna have all of that stuff, but you're gonna also have this local access to where people can work out, they can hang out by the pool, they can eat and drink, and they can, you know, have Wi-Fi and just hang out in this really cool place throughout the day. Uh yeah, so we're bringing a lot of new things and new ideas. Um, but it it is a uh it's a big investment and uh it looks like it's gonna happen. But if people are interested and would like to know more about it, especially if you're wanting to invest, it's for accredited investors only, which means I think the parameters now are you've gotta have a job that a salary that earns 200,000 or uh or more per year, or in your net worth's gotta be like a million dollars or just accredited investors. Yeah, it's a it's an S E C thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Um if you're interested, you can email either of us uh Scott at wondervest.world or April at wondervest.world w a wondervest. Yeah, wonder W A N D E R V E S T.world.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:37

Yeah, if you guys don't mind, if you can put it in the show notes or something. But if you email us, all of the documents that an investor needs, you know, there's a pitch deck and OEMs, anyway, all of that stuff will get sent to you and uh you can and you know evaluate whether it's something you'd like to invest in. But it it is not just this resort. This is the flagship property, the first step. Because one of the things that we want to solve is we want to have resorts in different places around the country where you're not paying one membership to go this weekend to this club and another membership. You get you're a part of this one bigger organization and you pay one monthly membership for it, and you get access to all of this stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:17

I can't tell you how many swinger websites or clubs, like they all we are on all of them. And you add all that up, it can be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:25

They're paying yeah, monthly memberships for a lot of them. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

Yeah, this would end up being overall for people, especially for people like you, would be less per month, and you get access to a lot more. So yeah, we're excited about it. It it's hard to we we try to tow the line about saying what we can. But uh, yeah, if you're interested, email us and we can send you all the information, all the financials, everything. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

No, that's cool. Uh yeah, it's it is interesting. Um the lifestyle is business-wise, is in an interesting place right now. It seems like there's a lot of growth and change. I was also reading an article right now, it's saying that it's something like 80% of American businesses are owned by like baby boomers. And so there's a lot of like changeover that's getting ready to happen and stuff for companies. And I see that within the lifestyle too, though. I do too. A lot of these lifestyle business owners are older, you know, uh type people. And uh we've been approached by several people that say, hey, you know, here pretty shortly, we might be interested in selling this. Is this something you'd be interested in in investing and stuff like that? So I think it's gonna be the next, you know, four or five years is gonna be an interesting time.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:25

Well, it is. Yeah, I think non-monogamy in general is opening up to mainstream culture a lot more. You see a lot more shows, a lot more things, you know. And as that happens and the younger generation starts growing up, it it is just continuing to grow. And that old mindset of the keys in a bowl and you gotta wear a collared shirt, no backwards hatch.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

That stuff is fading, and it as it becomes more mainstream, the lifestyle is gonna look like mainstream culture, and and it needs to adjust. The vibe has got to change a little bit, and and hopefully we can we can help do that a little bit. All right, well, that's exciting stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:00

So definitely reach out to Scott in April if you're interested in hearing more about that. And uh, we appreciate you guys stopping uh into the studio.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:09

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:10

We always love hanging out with you guys.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:11

You have to come back before we move. I didn't know you were moving.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:16

All right. Well, anything else for the Twin Nation listeners, Lacey?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:19

No, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:20

All right, I think with that, in a world full of apples, be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:24

Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:25

Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Twitter content creators on our Twinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at thustwination at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to dustwination.net and keep up to date on all things at Twin Nation. We thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.